Topic No. 10 Date: Tue, 22 Nov 1994 11:10:32 +0700 From: "Philip E. OKunewick" To: cavers Subject: Re: Dowsing Message-ID: <9411221810.AA03051@sunoco.ecte.uswc.uswest.com> Graham Mullan: >...there is not a single case of anyone ever discovering previously >completely unknown cave passage using this technique, the existence of >said pasage being subsequently verified by its being entered... There is at least a single case: One cave in Pennsylvania is said to have been discovered this way, and then opened with a bulldozer. The cave passages followed what was predicted by the dowsing. I believe this is documented in one of the MAR bulletins. I consider myself to be a skeptic. I prefer to believe that dowsing is subliminal responses to subliminal cues, rather than some mysterious phenomena that modern science can't yet explain. ---Phil ------------------------------ Topic No. 12 Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 12:54:26 +0000 From: Olly Betts To: cavers Cc: J.D.Wilcock@soc.staffs.ac.uk (John Wilcock) Subject: Cave Dowsing [was Re: Microgravity: Locating cave passages] Message-ID: Gavin.Lowe@comlab.oxford.ac.uk wrote: >Let's start another controversial thread ... > >One theory suggests that dowsing works in a similar way: the brain detects >small differences in the gravitational field, which causes small arm >movements, causing the dowsing rods to move. > >Other theories suggest that it's actually electromagnetic fields that are >detected. For those out there who don't know the background to this, I'll explain briefly. John Wilcock (J.D.Wilcock@soc.staffs.ac.uk) claims to be able to dowse for cave passage, by wandering around the countryside with two bent bits of coathanger wire. He describes himself as a sceptic, who tried it and was amazed to find he appeared to be able to do it. He's a scientist by training, and he's done a fair bit of digging in the literature for theories and controlled experiments. Dowsing techniques are apparently used by oil and mineral companies. John is keen to be experimented on in the hope of discovering more. There was a write-up of the "dowsing welly" experiment in the BCRA CREG journal maybe a year ago. This determined that there was no statistical evidence that insulating the dowser from the ground affected the dowsing response. I had a go myself at the CREG field meet in South Wales. The area was above OFD top entrance, which has a lot of cave passage under it. I had a wander around, and seemed to find an edge to the response which I followed around. John also tried the same area and we compared results afterwards and they seemed to agree quite closely. This was a somewhat informal experiment, as we both could have had some idea of what the cave looked like, as well as seeing where each other went. However, it convinced me that there is something going on. I've cc:-ed this to John, as he'll probably be interested in commenting, and I don't know if he currently reads the forum. He sent a message a long time ago about cave dowsing and seemed to get little response. >Dowsing rods are a lot cheaper than microgravity meters as well. Another point in dowsing's favour. Wandering around in the sunshine with two bent coathangers is a pleasant activity, even if it doesn't work. Some people seem to be better at dowsing than others. YMMV. Olly ------------------------------ Topic No. 6 Date: Wed, 23 Nov 1994 17:14:52 +0000 From: J.D.Wilcock@soc.staffs.ac.uk (John Wilcock) To: cavers Subject: Re: CAVERS-DIGEST digest 4974 Message-ID: <9411231717.AA16556@mail.soc.staffs.ac.uk> On 18 Nov 94 05:36:04 EST Graham Mullan <100276.2411@compuserve.com> wrote: >Dowsing rods are very cheap. There are also a fair number >of people who use them. Despite this there is not a single case of anyone ever >discovering previously completely unknown cave passage using this technique, >the existence of said pasage being subsequently verified by its being entered. >All techniques should be judged by their results. The results of this technique >are total crap. There is therefore no point in wasting time trying to discover >how it works 'cos it don't. > >But don't think I'm biased or anything! As he says, Graham is biased, but in this case I must disagree with him. There are several documented occurrences now when dowsing followed by excavation has led to new cave passages. As a prime example I can mention the Mendip, UK, entrances excavated by backhoe such as Clay Holes at Greendown Farm given in my previous email. I am a scientist and I am interested in finding a rational scientific mechanism for why dowsing should work, and the most likely mechanism is either electric or magnetic field detection by the human operator. As we already know, whales, dolphins, bees and carrier pigeons exhibit some field detection ability, and there is no reason why humans should not also have such an ability. I'm very interested in continuing this discussion, and in getting some remote radiotelemetry equipment which could monitor possible physiological changes caused by field effects. Thanks, John. ____________________________________________________________________________ Dr J.D. Wilcock, Reader in Computing, Staffordshire University, School of Computing, P.O. Box 334, STAFFORD ST18 0DG, UK Tel: 01785-275446, International +441785275446 FAX: 01785-55334, International +44178555334 Internet: j.d.wilcock@soc.staffs.ac.uk ____________________________________________________________________________ Thanks, Olly, for starting up this thread again. What Olly says is correct. I continue to be a sceptic, but have now walked hundreds of miles over the fells charting dowsing reactions in caving regions in Britain, France (for example the Cele river region, and Padirac to its resurgence) and Spain (Picos). I have a mosaic of maps ("Master Maps") for every British caving region at a scale of 1:25000. I have generated many controversial theories about unexplored cave systems as a result. I publish from time to time in the caving press, in order to get a "time stamp" which can be referred to when new cave is discovered. In the main, exploration as it happens tends to confirm the theories. A relatively new activity for Britain is power digging with a backhoe, which has been preceded by dowsing on a number of occasions. This has led in the Mendips to the entry to White Pit, and also the immense square passage which is being dug at Greendown Farm. This, however, is not enough for me, as I am a scientist who is anxious to explain the dowsing effect in scientific terms. In this respect I have designed experiments for the BCRA Cave Radio & Electronics Group, which has a sideline in cave location. These experiments have been relatively crude so far, depending on trailing wires, and the adjustment of switches in plain sight, which could easily lead the operator to imagine that "something should be happening" when in reality it should not. The only way round this is to design a radiotelemetry device which is capable of altering artificial fields, etc. without the operator's knowledge, and of telemetering back physiological parameters such as heartbeat and skin potential. I would be grateful to hear from anyone who has experience in the fields of medical electronics, skin electrodes, command signals and telemetry, and I am anxious to continue this thread of discussion, and to take part in further experiments in the possible relevance of dowsing to the location of cave passages. Thanks, John. ____________________________________________________________________________ Dr J.D. Wilcock, Reader in Computing, Staffordshire University, School of Computing, P.O. Box 334, STAFFORD ST18 0DG, UK Tel: 01785-275446, International +441785275446 FAX: 01785-55334, International +44178555334 Internet: j.d.wilcock@soc.staffs.ac.uk ____________________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Topic No. 13 Date: Mon, 28 Nov 1994 10:41:24 -0500 (EST) From: URIAH LEE SHANG To: cavers Subject: dowsing Message-ID: Greetings all, The entrance to Scott Hollow Cave used dowsing to be found. The entrance valley was a well known drainage area. Mike Dore used a dowsing stick to decide where to dig the entrance. Mike believes that dowsing detects empty areas in the rock near a surface. Well, the present entrance is the result of the dowsing experiment. Lee ------------------------------ ------------------------------ Topic No. 21 Date: Mon, 28 Nov 1994 16:36:04 -0600 (CST) From: MIXON@fusion.ph.utexas.edu To: cavers Subject: DOWSING Message-ID: <941128163604.22224f67@fusion.ph.utexas.edu> We will never hear the end of dowsing, I'm sure. There are those who are convinced they can do it, and there are those who see no evidence that it really works. I suspect the problem is that those who think they can do it really can, _sometimes_, but they are all wrong about why it works. And those who are sure it can't work are that way because they are convinced the erroneous explanations can't be true--attacking straw men, as it were. Lots of people are good at finding likely places to dig for caves. Some of them happen to like to do it when carrying around bent wires. What does that prove? A true scientific test of a claim that somebody can find buried car keys by dowsing would go something like this. Person A makes up fifty padded envelopes, half containing car keys and half containing an couple of chunks of plastic of equal weight. Person B, who has no idea which envelopes are which, buries them all at random locations in a featureless field. Person C, the alleged dowser, not having been present when any of this is done and in the absence of persons A and B, finds however many of the envelopes he can that contain car keys. The recovered envelopes are then opened and appropiate tests are applied to things like the percentage of recovered envelopes that actually contain keys. This is a "double-blind" test with controls, the sort of thing that, if done right, actually might have some validity. Unfortunately, few people claim to be able to dowse for car keys. A similarly reliable experiment with water pipes or cave passages would be a lot harder to arrange, which is why, I suspect, this dowsing business persists. -- Bill Mixon ------------------------------ Topic No. 8 Date: Tue, 29 Nov 94 02:23:00 UTC From: i.drummond@genie.geis.com To: cavers Subject: Caving and Electronics Message-ID: <199411290620.AA200750003@relay2.geis.com> There have been a few postings recently on measuring and recording water levels, searching for springs by conductivity measurements, ground penetrating radar and conductivity measurements by Very Low Frequency radio methods. ----- Can I remind people that all these topics have been mentioned in "Speleonics", the newsletter of the NSS Communications and Electronics Section. ---- As the Chairman and one of the 3 Editors of Speleonics (along with Frank Reid and Joe Giddens), I would like to invite the people interested in this stuff to subscribe to the Newsletter (US$1.50 a copy USA/Canada/Mexico, $2.00 overseas, from Joe Giddens, PO Box 891, Camden, Arkansas, 71701). There are 20 back issues available, with a cumulative index. Further I would ask you to write and tell us what you are interested in doing. Who knows, you might find yourself part of a project actually doing what you want! --- Dave Herron suggested using VLF radio techniques to detect subterranean water, but did not have a reference. Geonics, 1745 Meyerside Drive, Mississauga, Ontario, Canada, L5T 1C5, (905)-670-9580 is a source for a lot of information on these and related techniques. For example I have a technical note TN-6 "Electromagnetic Terrain conductivity measurements at low induction numbers" which is very readable and illustrates several types of equipment that do exactly what Dave was suggesting. Geonics both makes and rents stuff, but I don't know what it costs. --- I should also mention (if Dave Gibson doesn't get in first), for the people interested in investigating Dowsing, that the Cave Radio and Electronics Group (CREG) in the UK have been running some double-blind experiments on a Dowser, electrically insulating or connecting him to the ground. The famous "Dowsing Welly" experiment! Contact Dave Gibson (gibson@mcrosolv.demon.co.uk) for more details. --- Ian Drummond ------------------------------ Bill, of the family Mixon, in a longer article included the following, that I am quoting out of context: >Unfortunately, few people claim to be able to dowse for car keys. A >similarly reliable experiment with water pipes or cave passages would be a >lot harder to arrange, which is why, I suspect, this dowsing business >persists. -- Bill Mixon Been done. Utah State University, more than 5 years ago. Results were better than statistical noise, but with some false hits. Both the "easily found" pipes, and the false hits were well correlated with magnetic field changes. A test of the muscles of the dowsers did show that the rods were responding to muscle movement, and did not move from any other cause. The prevailing theory at the time was that since the dowsers rods were all arrangements which a small muscle twitch would be amplified, and since they do correlate with magnetic fields, the effect was just a way to make obvious subtle reactions of humans to magnetic or electric potentials. Some TV show also rehashed this research as part of a bad "unexplained mystries" sort of program... I hasten to add that I am not aware of any research that would indicate any reliablity for "metal dowsers" or any dowsing other than looking for buried metal pipes. If a member of this list has data on a reliable test for cave dowsing, I'd be interested in seeing it. - John Halleck ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Nov 94 18:11:54 CST From: "Ollie McKagen" To: cavers Subject: RE: Message-ID: <65519.obycraky@BEV.NET> Uriah notes: >>The entrance to Scott Hollow Cave used dowsing to be found. The entrance valley was a well known drainage area. Mike Dore used a dowsing stick to decide where to dig the entrance. I'm not familiar enough with the actual technique Mike used, but I've seen the valley where the original entrance is located, and no-one with or without a dowsing stick would have had any trouble telling where to dig; the valley filled with water after a heavy rain and emptied at one end, along a small cliff leading to a pocket in both the floor of the valley and the edge of the cliff slope. The amount of water draining predicted a big cave, and surface features showed where to dig. At that, it took two tries; the original entrance tunnel was placed almost horizontally and went for several yards, intersecting a passage roughly parallel with the cliff... using it, the final entrance culvert was placed nearly vertically into a better location. I'm mixed on the effectiveness of dowsing as a technique, but if it were all that good, Mike should have had better luck on his first try. ---------------- Date: Tue, 29 Nov 1994 18:58:51 -0500 (EST) From: DHOLLICK@delphi.com To: cavers Subject: dowsing Message-ID: <01HK28WRY6HU91WMKV@delphi.com> In response to the request for the source of Phil Okunewick's reference on dowsing, see MAR Bulletin #12, Caves of Mifflin County PA, July 1981, page 39, Kingston Cave, paragraph 2: "Kingston Cave was an entranceless cave prior to the excavation and was discovered by divining. Mr. Kingston felt that there should be cave passages under his airport which lies on top of a ridge. There were no surface depressions but the existance of Penn Aqua cave and Seawra Cave were suggestive. In March 1964, Mr Kingston carried out a divining survey (see J. Kingston, J. L. Haas, W. B. White, and N. E. Lambert (1964) Recent Applications of Cave Divining by the Nittany Grotto. NSS News #22, 157-158) along the top of the ridge and followed his signal down into the water gap where the stream and lane are located. Partway down the hill he lost the signal and deeming this to indicate the intersection of the cave with the hillside, he brought in the earthmoving equipment. The excavation struck the cave passage dead-on." While I have no opinion on the subject myself, I remembered reading this and thought it may be interesting to those who beleive divining to be useful. Dave Hollick ------------------------------ Topic No. 4 Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 13:44:50 +0000 From: J.D.Wilcock@soc.staffs.ac.uk (John Wilcock) To: TREA@delphi.com, cavers Subject: Re: Cave dowsing and the possible psychic or physical reasons for it Message-ID: <9411301348.AA21553@mail.soc.staffs.ac.uk> Thanks for your comments, Tom. I give some additional information below. >I have so far not taken a scientific interest in dowsing. It seems to work >most of the time, with some spetacular failures, so I just use it. I'm an >engineer, not a scientist, so I'm willing to use what works. > I am both a physicist and an electrical engineer, having worked in the computing industry for several years, and now I am an academic at what is probably the largest School of Computing at a university in the UK, with over 100 lecturing staff and 1800 students (about one fifth of Staffordshire University as a whole). I am also severely practical in using what works without worrying whether there is a recognised theoretical structure behind it. >I'm not completely negative toward psychic phenomena either, having had some >outstanding demonstrations: psychic "messages" have literally saved my life >(or at least prevented serious injury) two times. I am willing to believe >dowsing is a psychic phenonemon and as such the pressure of a structured >experiment would ruin it. > Here I must say that I have an open mind. To say that structured experimentation destroys the dowsing effect because it is "psychic" of course plays into the hands of the sceptics. I accept that there are unexplained phenomena. However, for dowsing I incline to the detection by the human body of some physical field (whether electrical, magnetic or gravitational) by an as yet unexplained mechanism. I was involved in a dowsing exercise at a 17th Century house in London to detect underground passages, and three dowsers worked on separate occasions. Someone has told me that a "ghost" or spirit resident in the house has told him that I am correct in my dowsing results rather than the other two dowsers - but I take this with a pinch of salt! Perhaps you disagree? >It's easy to criticize a man who claims he can do something but says he >can't do it while you are watching him or judging him. For that reason, I >just do it. I don't usually claim I can do it or make a fuss about it, I >just do it. Believe it or not, if I'm alone and don't really care it usually >works and if I have made a brag or have skeptical people watching me I >usually fail. > I agree with your sentiments, and I also just go out and do it, whenever a "blank" region occurs on the caving map. I particularly go and look at any new cave reported in the caving press. I have a mosaic of 1:25000 maps for all the UK caving regions, and I publish sections of these "master maps" in the caving press with informative articles from time to time, just to generate controversial discussion, and to get a "time stamp" on the theoretical cave passages so that when they are eventually explored I can refer back and correlate the actual passages with the dowsing predictions. I don't care whether sceptical persons are present or not, they have no effect on me or the dowsing results. Few indeed can keep up with me across the fells, since I move at a fast walking pace. Most sidle off and then say they will meet me back in the pub (public drinking house, for those across the pond). >Why don't you go out by yourself and try it. The first time I did it I laid >a water hose full of water on the ground and walked over it. You can also >use a length of wire or a metal pipe. Take two lengths of stiff wire about >18 inches long and bend in the middle at right angles. Hold them as loosely >as possible in your hands, hands in front about six inches apart, elbows >bent. Balance the rods so they just barely point forward but can easily >swing from side to side. Walk across the target--see what happens. Anyone >watching/judging can say you cheated, but you will know. > >Tom > I agree that people should just go out and do it, and it works not only for caves, but for buried service pipes and cables. This may be because a metal pipe or cable may have become permanently magnetised in the earth's magnetic field, or because there is a magnetic field generated by a flowing electric current, or simply that the trench is a "negative anomaly". The effect of flowing water is dramatic, but large dry cave passages are also detected. Small cave passages at depth may give no effect, I find. For rods I prefer bent wire which I make typically from wire hangers given away by dry cleaning firms. Good caving and dowsing. John. Thanks, John. ____________________________________________________________________________ Dr J.D. Wilcock, Reader in Computing, Staffordshire University, School of Computing, P.O. Box 334, STAFFORD ST18 0DG, UK Tel: 01785-275446, International +441785275446 FAX: 01785-55334, International +44178555334 Internet: j.d.wilcock@soc.staffs.ac.uk ____________________________________________________________________________ Topic No. 9 Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 12:29:08 -0600 (CST) From: Mark Richardson To: cavers Subject: dowsing info Message-ID: I looked up dowsing (sometimes called "water witching") in our library and found some interesting references, although we don't carry the journals here. The Russians have apparently had much interest in the subject in the past, and have done at least one study involving caves- "Dowsing in the Soviet Union" PSI Research 1985, Sept-Dec, Vol 4, 192-195 also- 1986, Mar-Jun, Vol 5, 34-38 (the cave research) also- 1982, Sept. Vol 1, 126-129 and in the interest of those who say it's crap... "Dowsing: A Claim Refuted" Journal of the Society for Psychical Research 1982, Oct. Vol 51 384-386 also- 343-367 I think they are probably parapsychology journals, and I don't know how solid their research methods in that branch might be. I myself have tried dowsing and there does indeed seem to be something to it, although it is impossible to be truly objective about it just from doing it one's self. Uh oh, I used the word "impossible" now I've done it...:-{ Mark Richardson Psy40008@frank.mtsu.edu ------------------------------ Topic No. 3 Date: Wed, 30 Nov 94 20:57:59 MST From: dgdavis@nyx.cs.du.edu (DONALD G. DAVIS) To: cavers Subject: Dowsing Message-ID: <9412010357.AA16314@nyx.cs.du.edu> The U.S. Geological Survey published a booklet, "Water Dowsing" (1977), which I recall found no statistical significance beyond random chance in locating subterranean water by this method. Several things seem peculiar about the claims made for dowsing, one being the remarkable variety of things (water, metal, ores, cave voids) it allegedly can find. What do these have in common? Some adherents have even claimed they can dowse from maps! (After reading a newspaper item on one of these--one Peter Hurkos, I believe--in the 1960s, I wrote to him suggesting that a good test of his abilities would be to outline the discovered and undiscovered passages of Fort Stanton Cave, New Mexico, on the topographic map. I got no reply.) If cave dowsing does work, it seems unlikely that subliminal magnetic sensing could be the mechanism. If voids in limestone have a measurable effect on the earth's magnetic field, our usual method of cave surveying with magnetic compasses ought to show distortions. If the variations are real but too subtle for compasses to detect, but our bodies can sense them, why do we need compasses to survey at all? We should be able to determine our orientation unaided, with greater precision than the compass! Since the geomagnetic field also has a vertical component, we wouldn't even need inclinometers. (Fantasy: "My brain magnetite particles indicate 263.0427 degrees azimuth and -32.3763 inclination from A1 to A2...") Electric-field detection could avoid some of the questions associated with magnetism. But if caves are in fact associated with electrical phenomena, there ought to be more direct and objective methods of measuring the fields than subliminal responses via dowsing rods. --Donald Davis ------------------------------ Topic No. 5 Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 23:15:47 -0800 From: rstitt@halcyon.com (Rob Stitt) To: cavers Subject: Dowsing Message-ID: <199412010715.AA26434@halcyon.com> The real reaon I finally introduced myself (see separate message) is so I could put in my two bits worth about dowsing. I first became aware of dowsing some 35 years ago when I was in high school. An article in Astounding Science Fiction (now Analog) by John W. Cambell, the thought-provoking and controversial editor, pointed out that "Pipe-finders" (the term he used for the coat hangars) were in common use by water departments everywhere for finding pipes, and that they were more reliable and effective than the "physical" methods that were being used then. I put some energy into a research project on the coat hangers, and set up some experiments to figure out how they worked. For example, I used them blindfolded (they still worked to find garden hose that I had laid out on the surface). I also fixed the coat hangers so that they couldn't tip freely ( by inserting the coathangers into pieces of copper tubing attached to a board across the bottom of the two tubes. The fact that they didn't work in this situation led me to hypothesize that they actually work by muscular action and inputs from the user, although the blindfold test suggests that they may be due to more than just visual clues. I have used the coathangers to find an underground stream that crossed through my parents yard. Digging a hole in the streamcourse produced a very shallow water table, while digging away from the streamcourse produced a much deeper water table. Fortunately the stream missed our basement, but just barely, and we had had to waterproof the basement wall when I was much younger. The presence of the stream course outside our yard was well documented, since it produced frost heaves on two streets before they finally dug it up extensively and put in drainage pipes under the streets. I also dowsed for a cave in Cobleskill, New York, with Bob Addis in the middle 70's. The cave passage that was dowsed was later discovered to exist right where the path was found by the dowsing. I also have had several discussions about dowsing with Ralph Squire from California, who claimed he had found several major caves and cave passages in the Mother Lode by dowsing. Somewhere in my libary I have a book on dowsing from the early part of the century. I can't locate it right now, so it's probably packed away in a box that's in storage. This book is on the forked stick type of dowsing, and as I remember is presented as a geologically sound treatise. Of course, so were lots of things back in those days. The above is all anecdotal evidence, and will probably be discounted by those who don't believe in dowsing. Those of us who do believe, or are agnostic, will probably not be convinced by the absolute non-believers. Look at it this way. The argument keeps things interesting. Speleotations, Rob Stitt ------------------------------ Topic No. 6 Date: Thu, 01 Dec 1994 08:53:21 +0100 From: france.sustersic@uni-lj.si To: CAVERS Subject: dowsing experiment - part 1 Message-ID: <00988481.7579129C.67@uni-lj.si> It appears that people who learn about dowsing generally accept it or reject it very quickly, and then they hold their position predominantly emotionally.Dowsing is quite common in the karst of Slovenia and it is has been used many times, typically to find objects which are of particular interest to some people (tubes, wires, cables, ores, hollows, even dead human bodies or treasure). I've been observing that since my childhood. I have also observed that there are people who seem able to discover caves without any device, just following their intuition. It happened that two meters of blasting were needed to open a cave, spotted just by the feeling that a cave must be somewhere around. So I have never completely believed in dowsing, nor completely refused to debate about it. Some years ago it happened that four dowsers of some reputation met by mere chance at Postojna. One of them was Mr. Riesch from Germany, a dowser of international reputation. Two of them were Slovenes, and one was Italian. I proposed a field experiment to which they agreed. I took them to a place they did not know but where I knew that caves were below. They had to walk along a very comfortable forestry road running 80m to 120m above the passages of the caves NR. 208 and Najdena jama (some British readers will remember). The experiment took nearly the whole day to check a 2 km long stretch of the road. They walked about 50 m apart, and each was supervised by one or two persons, who knew the terrain very well. Finally we sat down together and compared the results, and they agreed to quite an extent, so that one might believe that there must be something in the dowsing. I was monitoring the "great" Riesch and I must say that he really was able to detect not only known caves, but also unknown voids and geological fractures which were absolutely undetectable from the road (the area is densely forested). At one position he said that he was receiving a diagonal "signal". He stepped about half meter back and he lifted his hands (with curved wires, of course). And they really moved together. He repeated the performance several times and he concluded that a hollow must be in the direction 45 degrees downwards. Later he found a place where the "signal" was vertical and he concluded that he had found the same cave again. It was about 130m deep. Now my comments: A void really is there below. It is a part of Najdena jama, very close to the "clear water syphon". But: the passage is about 10 m wide, 10 m high, twisted in 3D, and of very corrugated walls. How could it yield a "signal" or "beam" which was less a foot wide? If he had said that there was, say, a 30 m zone of feeble signals I could believe. But such a "concentration" seems physically impossible. I'd rather believe that he and his colleagues intuitively "read" my and my friend's expectations, and that they projected our knowledge about the caves and geology. This is not the end of the story, but I am interested in hearing comments at this point. FranceS ------------------------------ Topic No. 8 Date: Thu, 01 Dec 1994 18:02:11 +0100 From: Eric Madelaine To: cavers Cc: madelain@crios.inria.fr Subject: Re: Dowsing Message-ID: <199412011702.AA22026@crios.inria.fr> Sherry wrote: >At the British Cave Research Association Conference a couple of years ago, >Kev Senior (a skeptic) did a scientific debunk of dowsing, arguing that >any successes were probably due to the dowser picking up subliminal hints from >the landscape. He also showed some tests where three different people dowsed >the same area and said that the correspondences weren't strong. On the other >hand, I think the fact that *some people* have had success with it makes it >worth a try as a cave-finding method, and its fun to boot. Who knows - you may >find something just as a result of the detailed walk over an area. > I happenned to make similar experiments, and found that, different people had very different results. But this well known. More interesting perhaps, was the uncorrelation between skepticism and results... Some "unbelievers" were very funny trying to prevents their "baguettes" (french vocabulary) to cross.. I was particularly interested in seeing my 5 years-old daughter walk around and suddenly shout "J'ai trouve'!"... We tried again at her spot (a new one) with good corelation (but what does it prove?), made a surface survey of her "discovery", and are still waiting to find a connection between this spot and a nearby cave we are working in. There are a number of evident observations/questions coming from this try, and I would not try to answer them to quickly... - I do not think that Claire, my daughter got "subliminal hints" from the local geology, even if her ADN carries a lot of caving knowledge (;-) - Many people argue that the knowledge of people watching has an influence on the test (double blind stuff is about it, isn't it?). So did Claire get the hints from my mind? - Would it be a significant token of contribution if we would publish our "dowsed" surface surveys before we effectively find the cave underneath? What kind of information would you consider important in such a publication (dowsing equipement, dates, of course, people involved maybe, statistics on depth information gained from the dowsing, etc?) Eric. Topic No. 11 Date: Thu, 01 Dec 1994 17:36:10 +0000 From: J.D.Wilcock@soc.staffs.ac.uk (John Wilcock) To: cavers Subject: Scientific tests for cave dowsing Message-ID: <9412011739.AA10945@mail.soc.staffs.ac.uk> Thanks to everyone for the interesting documentation on cave location by dowsing at Kingston Cave, and the Utah State University experiments. The "dowsing welly" experiment should soon be available on WWW via Sherry in Australia. Graham Mullan (26.11.94) suggests that the services of James Randi, the notorious US magician be used. I would suggest that what is needed is not sleight of hand, nor "magic", but controlled scientific experimentation OVER NATURAL CAVE PASSAGES such as the BCRA CREG, and the "Greensites Project" in South Wales are carrying out. John Thanks, John. Topic No. 15 Date: 25 Jan 95 15:41:54 EST From: Chris Smart <100025.2676@compuserve.com> To: Subject: Dowsing Success Message-ID: <950125204154_100025.2676_EHK95-1@CompuServe.COM> I have been off line recently but to continue the dowsing theme - There was a recent plea for evidence of caves having been found by dowsing. The following may therefore be of interest and add fuel to the fire. >> The Cougnac caves were explored at the beginning of 1949 in a highly singular fashion. A water-diviner accompanied by six prospectors discovered the first gallery full of an unusual number of formations. Three years later, the same group found the second grotto, a major cave system which contains prehistoric drawings. The gallery was immediately classified as a historic monument. << This is from a 1993 guide to the show caves of France - "Grottes de France" (no author given) published in both French and English by Castelet. The above quote is from page 64 and relates to the Grottes de Cougnac. Unfortunately no other references are cited. So by doing a little searching I found that "The caves of France and Northern Spain" by Ann and Gale Sieveking, published in 1962 mentions this painted cave and states that >> The entrance was entirely blocked up before its discovery in in 1952 << In another book "The Painted Caves" by Geoffrey Grigson, published in 1957, this second of the Grottes de Cougnac is described as being entered through a potato cellar. >> At the back of this cellar....a draught had long been felt between the rock and the earth. Explorers followed the draught, they dug out the earth, they discovered step by step, spadeful by spadeful, a cave corridor...<< However, to further confuse the issue, "Guide des Caverns Touristiques de France" by Pierre Boulanger, published in Paris in 1970 by Nouvelles Editions Latine again refers to two caves at Cougnac discovered in 1949 and 1952. He describes them as being found by the diviner M. Lagard and M. Jean Mazet and gives the names of the five companions. This book appears to be the source of the information for the 1993 guide but has a bonus in that a reference for the 72 page book "Cougnac, Grotte Peinte" by Louis Meroc and Jean Mazet, one of the original explorers, is given. This was published in 1956 by Klohlhammer in Stuggart. Does anyone have a copy of this and does it help? The "Guide de Grottes de Europe Occidentale" by Villy Aellen and Pierre Strinati, published in 1975 has one further reference to Cougnac. This is for a 16 page, undated, booklet by Jean Mazet entitled "Cougnac" published by Benech in Gourdon. Maybe this give a first hand account of the divining? "Grottes Eternalles" by Valery d'Amboise, published in 1986 again states that Cougnac was discovered by divining and also says that the Grotte de Bellevue was discovered by the use of pendulum divining by Raymond Cabrignac in 1964. Just for the record I'm keeping an open mind. There are far too many scientific phenomena that I have no chance of fully understanding, but accept that they exist and that they do work. In my days of employment as a land surveyor we would frequently track underground pipes using bent coat-hanger wire divining rods. We were often correct in our location but this may well have been linked to reading, by what ever means, the ground disturbances. Chris Smart.